Starting Y
Starting Y

Episode 10 · 10 months ago

Serial Entrepreneur Jay Moore on Prasaga and why to be an Entrepreneur


Our Intro is based on Quantum Jazz’s piece “Orbiting a distant planet”, published under Creative Commons

"The best sales advice I have given was not to buy from me" Jay Moore on selling 

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  • Jörn is a podcaster, startup scout and entrepreneur, who is based in Frankfurt, Germany. He has a background of more than 12 years of management consulting, with a focus on financial services and capital markets, mainly in Europe. He hosts an English startup podcast, covering the German startup scene ( You can learn more about Jörn “Joe” here:

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This is a starting why podcast. Here we ask entrepreneurs, actors, investors, in the dative and hardest on the why why they are doing what they are doing, what motivate and drive them and why can't they stop? We will start in five, four, three, two, one. Hey, folks, this is Joe and you are listening to starting why. This is my first interview focus starting why. So please cut me some slack if I do some stupid stuff here. Admittedly, it maybe my three hundred podcasted of you, but starting why is a new format for this. I'm actually trying out podcasting for starting why together with Jay. Hey, hi doing. It's really good to have you in this great quality here, because this is an audio podcast, but we still making the recording with video and I can see him smiling in Oregon, even though I'm right now in located home in Frankfurt. So that's really good. And would you guys cannot see he has a lot of stuff behind himself, including stuff like the minions in the bookshelf and I've seen Midi Yoda. This is the way and I'm sure we will all talk about all of that, but can you introduce yourself a little bit to our audience because you have a very, very interesting CV that we talked about before we even started the recording. Yeah, I mean, I was just saying this to a friend last night. It feels like I've lived many lifes just because of how exciting my opportunities to both start companies and to be part of startups. One of the things that I learned the hard way is that, especially when you're passionate about an idea, sometimes you can be ahead of yourself a little bit. One of the things that I've had to learn the hard way is market timing, and just because you have a great idea doesn't mean that the world's quite ready for it. When I was young, my dad got me started when I was nine years old, running at campground and I was making like three thousand dollars a summer, which for a nine year old was insane, and he made me, you know, by all the gas and the toilet paper and everything I needed to run the thing. So I actually did run a business and at the end of the day the same principles are true. You've got to have a profit, you have to have a loss, you have to have customers, you have to find the hardest thing is the product market fit to whatever idea you have. But I think the hardest thing I've ever done is what I'm doing right now, and that's to to start to think decentralized, to not look at it as my little empire and building or the team is building. But the way we're going to enable the future that I see is by Crea, getting ecosystems where people can succeed. Not that we don't need to make a profit anymore, but we need to look at how we make a difference and how we create change, and that to me, of all the startups I've done, not that I'm allergic to making money, I just don't measure success that way anymore and I think that's something for me that especially a lot of young entrepreneurs. They're mainly in it for the profit, and I just want to encourage anybody who's looking at start up to look at it for a couple other peas. Look at it for the passion, the thing that you really can't not do. If you can do anything else, do that, but if you can't not do it, then you probably have the grit and Tanaty be successful. It's something you're really passionate about and then the other thing is look at the people. The hardest thing is to pick the right business partners, but really look at the team that you're going to create and how you're going to help people. I mean, what is the impact you're going to have another humans? Those are the hardest things. See it right. All the rest of it,...

...all the raising capital and all the things that seem like it's difficult, will fall into place if you can get those two things right, literally the passion and the people, because with the right team in the right vision, you can change the world. Sorry, it is just having a few questions and I just wrote them down here. You have seen a lot, because you creditate it with the second degree when I was still in school and you did a lot of Sance, of convincing people. For everybody out there who's listening to this, who maybe new entrepreneur, who may be an aspiring entrepreneur, who may be a very seasoned entrepreneur, never too old to learn new dricks, can you tell us how to best sell and convince people? I've personally learned that getting a long list of advantages and just reading to them without listening to any feedback is usually the wrong way to do it. Well, actually, you gave away the answer right there. If you don't listen, you can't sell. One of the challenges that I've seen, because I trained, now that I think about it, hundreds of sales people over the years, and the guys that actually are in girls and not gender specific on the word guy, but the humans that do the best the ones that are truly concerned about the other person. And if you're doing that, you listen to their pain points, you find what's actually motivating to them, because people buy from people, they don't just buy products, and if they're connected to you, then you're going to be able to help them be able to do business with you. And you have to be honest if you're either too soon or not the right product or whatever. The best sales I've ever made were with people that I recommend they don't buy from me. Say this again please. The best say is the level of trust. If you actually have somebody say no, we're we don't have what you need, we don't want to have a bad experience, they're going to listen to you differently and when you do come to them with something that they need, they're going to go okay. Not only if you like built a level of trust you. I authentically have trust. That's the thing, the one thing that I've watched it with this generation even more. No Bullshit. I mean, whether it's marketing or sales, people just don't want to be sold. They don't want to be spun. They don't want to hear a bunch of marketing ease or sales he's. That's just it's not what motivates you. Authentic truth about what it is they need to have happened and what you can do to help make it happen. That's how a sales made and I think that's something where I kind of set it early when when you're trying to find product market fit, that's where you're trying to make sure what you're selling fits an audience and there's enough of people who are interested in buying it that you can actually build a business around it. But you have to listen, and that's the hardest thing. One of the things I do a lot of work with young sales people on is what I call leveling, and the hardest thing for people to understand is communication with another human means that you've got to be speaking in their context, and so if you're talking, and I do this all the time, so I'm most guilty of it in really technical terms, and these the person doesn't understand what you're saying. Communication isn't happening either. You'll even watch their eyes gloss over and they'll go uh Huh, uh Huh. Or, if they're a polite culture, they'll smallow and they'll say yes, yes, or if they on a phone call, you'll hear them snore at one point in time. Yeah, yeah, you know, and they've nodded off. And I I've been on a number of calls were I've lost connection and I've Gone On for twenty minutes. It just tells me not listening real well, because I didn't even notice that they weren't giving me feedback. But be careful, like I'll get up on a soapbox and you have to pull me down. Totally fine starting. Why is it digital soapbox? But I already like what you say. After...'ve been talking about here. Take on sales. How would be interested? What do you think about all the influencers? Yes, that with two different perspectives. One I think that I've been teaching this to kids for well, I apologize, I am old I'm sneaking up on sixty years now on the planet, but I'm still young at heart. But certainly you have a little bit of traction or if you look at your education, you look at all of the different pieces you're adding to your person as a human to add value and to create value in other people's lives. A lot of times the thing that gets underestimated is your ability to connect and be connected to other humans, and the reason I say that is, if you recognize how you succeed in life, it's who you know and who they know that you can get connected to. And the reason I put a fine point on that is the influencers are trying to commercialize or monetize their connections right and the one thing I'm noticing is that those connections are looser and looser in the sense that people are only so interested in giving their attention to an influence or as long as they're either being entertained, they're feeling like they've got status. There's some level of and the number of followers you have is rarely accurate, because it's not the number of people that have signed up over the years, it's how many people are paying attention to it. Any one time, and that's, you know, when we're when we start to measure engagement, that's the number that makes more sense. But it's not about how much reach you have, it's how much people hear what you're saying and take action on it or are motivated to change their behavior or, like we're saying, by what you're selling. And I think that's something where I looked because I've got the personality for the rest of it being one of those guys up on stage that's the motivational speaker, selling whatever, books and stuff, than putting everybody into a funnel and all the stuff that it takes to be a high level global influencer. And I just found it ethically unpalatable to myself that you're exploiting in a lot of people say, Oh, I'm adding all this value to people. Well, yeah, but you're extracting more value usually than what you're benefiting, especially when you start doing speaking gigs at, you know, twenty five to fifty k a pop. And I mean I'm talking about these guys that are pulling down tens of millions and revenue to and you know, that was what I was profiling for and I just couldn't get my heart or my passion to align with that. So when I say about the influencers, I respect what they're doing what in many ways I think it's a transitional piece of all the things that I think ai is going to be able to replace. It's going to be the influencers to day. Ha and yet another great quote for promoting visit of view. You're talking defy before at will get to this pretty soon, but first we've been talking about you had several stops on your way to an entrepreneur in sales and would have found very interesting. Tis from the name is president and found out of thin air design. How did you come up with the name? Well, I'll tell you this. I like to think of myself as a bit of a branding guy, because we said, well, we're to people think they get the best ideas, because that's what we were in the business of selling. Well, they think they come out of thin air. So we wanted to become thin air design, because then and after that there was the book and everything else that came out. It turns out that when you go to a bank or you sit down with an attorney and you call yourself thin air, they think it's fly by night. They hear that you're not actually going to be a corporate citizen, that the participates in the world. You're just going to disappear into thin air. Right. So it didn't always... to our benefit as a corporation, but it did work to get people not thinking about you know, because a lot of the advertising and design firms at the time sounded like law office is, you know, Edward John's and Soandso, and it was like or John Smith and and I know there's a bunch of jokes there I'm going to not go to. But part of the challenge we had was to get people to look at because it were in a very small town. You have to understand. I live in Eugene Oregon. You know, it's not at all near Portland. I have to drive two and a half hours to get to the Portland Air of mart and with traffic, we live right in the middle of a very large state. It's beautiful place. Please come visit, but go home. We have enough humanity here already. But it's a college town and if you're flowing familiar with the Nike shoes, it was started in Eugene Oregon. Their headquarters are now in Portland, but the CEO of night has been investing in the university is Alma Monter and we now have the world's most state of the art track and Field Stadium. We've got one of the nicest in all of American Football College stadiums. People will sign up to be on our team just because of the locker rooms or so, and that's the little college town I live in right since it was provided more or less directly by Nike. That's it look like. They're like the logo, the swoop. This I don't know if you've watched the Olympics, but if you did, you you'd see any time they were covering the trials for track and field for the Americans, they were showing because it's just such a beautiful place to film. They're showing our stadium. It actually looks like a quidditch feel it. It doesn't look you it certainly has that swoop in it, but you know, it looks like a futuristic stadium that you'd like. Quidditchen, we may add, for everybody who doesn't know that quidditch east the game at Harry Potter Games with a fly around on the brooms and try to catch multiple flying objects that look like balls and they're big ones, they're small ones, and I'm very confident even the creator off Harry Potter's not totally clear on the rules of quidditch. Yeah, I don't know that, because you flying on Broomsticks to go after these flying balls. It's an interesting thing when you're ideating the concepts are in your business. So I've started twelve new ventures and in my wife was like, yeah, those are just the ones you count. I've actually had twenty one businesses in my life, but the ones that have been incorporated, that have other people play. Started a computer company when I was still in college. The same day, actually night, Michael delda learned a lot. Well, it was only a quarter million dollars in depth by the time I was done, but little things. What was interesting as I was up by that much two weeks earlier and I gotten caught up in a in a a little market that I had no clue would turn that quickly, kind of like crypto. But you know the probably, and I say this a lot, I've learned more from the from the companies that, and I don't say failed, but that I didn't have what I call an exit from. I didn't have a liquidity of them, then I do from the ones that I did have the big upside on, and one of them in particular was a franchise restaurant that I did which was a theme restaurant. I don't know how much of those you have were there's all this rainforest cafe type of thing where there's this environment that you get inside of the takes you to a different place, and that's what theme restaurants do, and we were reinventing Burgers, fries and shakes and of course we had meatless back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight, and we had the best smoothies on the market and we had really healthy potato product. Not a lot of people, it turns out, the reason you pick a place to eat based on service and cleanliness and quality of food and all the different healthy is...

...about fourteen on the list as far as your preferences. So the fact that we'd gotten healthy nailed and we were Jomba juice meets Baja fresh back before those ever existed. Those are franchises the United States that made a actually Chapolti did as well. They made their brand around healthy eating rather than just fast food. So we're a little ahead of the market on that one. But I learned so much about France chising and operations manuals and all the little time I've spent with lawyers, because it's a very litigious model that you know, if you're an entrepreneur, you probably shouldn't buy a franchise because you're going to have to work inside a box that's tight enough that you're probably going to get really frustrated and as an entrepreneur, I swore I'd never do another franchise. We're doing a franchise, by the way. One question for dining out, I assume even before corona and number one of the list had to be proximity, convenience to get there right. Yeah, definitely traffic pattern. When you why are there's so many starbucks on every street corner around the planet, well, because if you're going to work, you're going to go into a drive through a different way than if you're coming home, and so the traffic analysis that goes into location planning is huge. It's one of the reasons why if a particular franchise shows up in an area, everybody knows, oh, that's a good location. We need to be around that, because mcdonaldson, starbucks and these guys spend tens of thousands of dollars of it analysis to figure out what the best location is. I mean not that you can always draft off of the other locations, but frequently that it's just indicative of what's going to be a good selling spot. And then you founded Garish Games. Yeah, actually I was a founding partner, but I came in a minute after they started, so I'm always they had already a marketing guy. That didn't work out, so I was. I was the second. Before we get into garish games because, and that's going to be pretty interesting, I would be curious what made you the fall shot down thin air design and get into a gaming I can tell you in one word. Eleven. Our Agency had about thirty percent of its buildings in hospitality. We had about another twenty percent in in other industries that were impacted by the terrorist attack and our company was done there. Just wasn't. I'd already started to work with garage games before. So one of the one of my liabilities. I call myself a massively parallel entrepreneur, and it's not just because I'm distracted by the shiny, but because I really do enjoy helping other entrepreneurs and doing a lot of advisory work, etc. And I'd started to look at Games because, Oh, our agency actually did a lot of work for a company called dynamics and before I went to garage games, I was on contract the brand manager for two franchises that the came out from CR online, both educational technology products. I did a game called the incredible machine, which is now in the top ten of all time Educational Technology Games. A game that wasn't really a game, it was just a simulator like a flight simular, but it was a driving simulator called drivers education and it taught kids had to drive a car on a computer instead of inside a two Tho killing machine. So that was a lot of excitement. I got the chance to build a franchise. The difficulty is in any big corporation, wordy a hold something that you is a unique product. Was Ever Green. We were making money every year but didn't fit anything else in the market that they were doing and so it just wasn't one of the news. Actually exciting AAA first person shooters. So it got lost in a reword, in a to this day it's a billion dollar opportunity that nobody else has done...

...yet. I see, I see. It's very hard to teach in Germany, because you guys have much better driving instruction over there. Here we just put a kid in the car and say hey, go. So, yeah, getting into your hard thing. Actually, I can tell you that there was some adapting I had to do before I was actually feeling good about driving in the you as, for example, the school bus us. You don't know that here in Europe that you always can take a right turn even though there's a red traffic light. In Germany, you can lose your trifles license for doing that. And what totally screwed me up are those intersections where all four streets meeting have a stop sign. I was totally confused when I first thing counted that you all got stopped sides. Hey, what, what was gotting on here? Well, especially if you're driving in California. Here we call it the California Rolling Stop. They don't actually ever stop for us up sign, but as a good idea if you don't want to get killed but are actually knock over a pedestrian. That's the bigger challenge. That was an exciting time. At the reason I mentioned that one is I actually got the chance to work with all of the retail to take a very large product in the market and I learned so much, just so much about how to do promotion. But the success of that product was built on PR. I worked with what was then the first ISO Ninezero rated PR firm because their methodology for getting placement of articles and television and the rest of it was so well designed that it could actually be audited. I don't know if everybody knows what an Isao Ninezero rating is. It's a quality certification. I've been working with that back in the days. I've been doing some stuff when I found it, a junior consultancy with it and if I think about it I still get nightmares. Depending on your auditor, German auditors could be very thorough. MMMM that's the word for it. Anyway. That the point was that we were able to generate more publicity for that title. My partnered with mother's against drunk driving and I did the first cause marketing and video games. I gave one and a half percent of our revenue from that game to mothers against runk driving and kind of the Paul Newman effect right and by doing that I was able to harness because, you understand, we're talking one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight. The internets were just starting to get to dial up and AOL was the thing right, and yet very, very low speed connectivity, so you weren't going to move a lot of stuff around. We're starting to figure it out, but it was still really early and one of the things that we were able to do, which now we use social media to get, was to partner with a one fifteen hundred chapters of the mother's again strunk driving, and get them to be our grassroots movement to tell all of the parents about this, and we built a drunk driving simulator into the product which, of course, no matter how good you got, you couldn't win because it just kept getting blurrier and blurrier and then you'd crash. So what kids did try to beat the drunk driving similar? Did they succeed? No, it like I say, you could try, but you you ended up because of the way we handle the video and the graphics, and then sick to your stomach because the distortion of the audio, the video and the controls that you were doing just made you have vertigo and inertia, and so kids, even who are trying to beat it, ended up almost getting sick doing it. So it was a very effective tool actually, when people who sober already get sake from trying it. Have you gotten any feedback from people who really got drunk and dried it? So we I put one into the Peterson Automotive Museum. You...

...and I actually met Charles and Heston at the premiere of this. He was still alive at the time and at that premiere we had a lot of drinking going on. So I got to watch people who were drunk get into the drunk driving so or, let's just say tipsy, get into the drunk driving simulator. Or you know, there are other words. I guess that you guys used for the same thing that. All I can say is that we had an intendant nearby that could get them a sick bag like you get on an airplane. It was not a pretty thing and it actually the guy was having to do that started to test the people and make them walk a straight line before you let him get into you didn't want to deal with that. It was the high high end Hollywood crowd. The out of the Pierson Museum is in La and it's all of the I was being interviewed by road and track and motor trend and all the all the patures of and that was another way I got publicity, was to be sponsoring things that normally only nascar in our world, in the gaming world, sponsored. So it was an exciting time. Oh and I bought a million and a half dollars worth of wheels to bundle with my game or but with my training, so that you can use a driving string wheel. Yeah, it didn't have pedals because that cost too much. And you know, had a little piece of things you right next to the wheel that you did for breaking and I had a tenzero signing authority. So don't know how that work. I see that was basically garish games. Right. No, no, this is the preambial. Sorry, I haven't gotten the garage. This was me. What I needed to know about games to actually be in the game business was being so cere online at the time had thirty five percent of the market share. They had. Well, Blizzard was one of theirs. So starcraft and all the titles that you think about, but see era had a ton of titles back in the s that were we're very very popular quest and we did a bunch through the studio that was in Eugene, but I think the one that got to be the largest was called tribes. Tribes Three was the last version of that. It was actually the thing that got everybody in the industry inspired to do, you know, unreal and Halo and all the different things that we call a duty, etc. Now. So it was a real early first person shooter. But that's a great segue to garage games. So the thing that happened with with Games is that the only people who could make them were the ones that could come up with either a million dollars to license a game engine per title or had the talent to sit in a room with like five really best in the world programmers and build their own game engine. For usually took seven years to get one done and that was the barrier to entry. You couldn't really just go out there and grab the tools to go make a game, kind of like in Hollywood when the studios own all the cameras. You couldn't make a movie without going to work for the studio. So we did something kind of radical. We got the rights because the founder of Garage Games was also the founder of dynamics that did the tribes engine. We able, we got the licensing to all of the source code, to publish the first AAA game engine with source code and we did it for a hundred dollars. That change this day. The first thing I did was started a conference called indie Games con. At the time we are actually coining the phrase indie Games and indie developer didn't mean. There was indie bands and Indie film, but there wasn't any games yet, and that's what we did to build an entire movement. There was over two hundred and Fiftyzero developers that got our engine and we're part of our community and we're learning how to make games with you know, what was a very adult was never designed for just anybody off the street to be able to make games in it. So there was a lot of learning curve to figure it out, and that's actually how unity beat us, as they made it very easy to make games in there as even though they didn't have the same technological advance. We were always a better engine, but they were easier to use. I actually did a keynote at the BTC Miami where I talked about how ease of use is the secret sauce to winning and almost any...

...technological advance that you're doing, if people can integrate it into their lives, they'll use it. If it's too hard, it just won't get traction. That kind of reminds me of one of the founders, Lukash Kadowski, that I have interviewed for my other podcast. He says Frist, get the strategy, ride and then get into did Nidi, creetyd test and make it easy, innovate, make it easy for two people. That that's basically the the Mall Nice, the same, the same stuff you're seeing right it's interesting because if you look the products that you have a love for, the intuitiveness of the design and the ability to get in and get what you want done, it's rarely the products that you love are the ones that are the hardest to use. Those are those are just not the types of products that get trending and I think that's one of the problems we have. And we can get this later, but in blockchain right now is blockchain is hard and we need to get it to a place where it's much easier. And of course I'm setting myself up for what we're doing with our current start up. But the thing that I think it was hard thing to learn. I learned it again with another startup I did called Bit Raider. It was actually Netflix for games that allowed you to start playing a game with only a very small portion of it downloaded and then, depending on what you did in the game, we dynamically loaded all the assets that you need to play it. So you're hard drive didn't have anything on it, but we knew what you're going to need by what you if you turn left, we're going to get all the assets, or to the left, or if you went to the right, we're going to get everything you'd see in the line of sight going to the right, and that allowed us to populate the file while you were playing the game. And right now you don't wait for the entire movie he gets downloaded to your device before you start watching it. Streaming is about playing it while it's it's being delivered, and that was the same thing we were doing. The problem was to deploy it against anybody's game. Wasn't easy. It took some custom work and these guys are busy building the next game or the next chapter in their game, etc. And you really couldn't burden them with trying to integrate a streaming technology, and so the fact that we weren't able to just push a button and then have a work was our biggest challenge with with that technology. And you are the cofounder and Chief Collaboration Officer OFF PRA saga. Yeah, Pro Saga, and for my question is, what is a CCO, a chief collaboration officer? So I've never been much for traditional titles. Matter of fact, I was once written up in the New York Times because I when I was at that thin air design I was the time space continuum director. That was my title because I always had to try and make deadlines work right, so I'd have to move projects around to get everything done in time. And then I was passionate champion of drivers education, which everybody was all always asking me. What's that? That's a well, it's like an evangelists is slightly slightly broader definition. But chief collaboration officer, I didn't realize it's an actual title in enterprise corporate where their job is primarily to get everybody internally to work together on stuff and it's a sea level C suite process because turns out in a lot of large corporations they don't know how to work together. But my intention with that was I'm all about connection and creating partnerships and collaborating, and specifically with a blockchain start up. We're creating the technology, we're going to open source that. We're a foundation, right, we need to get an ecosystem supporting us. So what we do, the way we do that is through collaboration with with other entrepreneurs, other large developers, partners that are actually building platforms on top of our technology, and so it just felt natural to be because, I mean the other title I go by as Chief Marketing Officer, CMO. But, and I shouldn't say this out loud,...

...but I've met a lot of CMOS and it never really liked them very much. I'm not saying that there aren't ones out there that I couldn't like, but their ego usually walks into the room before they do and I just don't, I don't identify with that particular certainly have the skill set for it, no question. I've been doing this for well, I've had to unlearn more than I think most people know about marketing yet. And now the great quote. Yeah, well, I mean that's the challenge. If you're not always learning, and this is something that I know at a DNA level. The more I know, the more I know I don't know, and that has to be it's ego free. It isn't about being somebody. It's about being open to possibility and what's next. All the stuff is social media. It's an evolving thing and it's an organism and if we think we've got it figured out, then we're probably not paying attention because it's going to change. And that's the thing. If you get to set in your ways, and I I'll be honest, I'm more of a gut guy. Like if I think this is going to be a great marketing campaign, I don't wait for the data, I just ship. But I'm more and more using a lot more analytics to test and make sure that there's the right sentiment analysis and all the all the things that a I can teach us about how to communicate to other humans is powerful. But if you don't have the big idea, you don't have anything to test. So it's definitely a chicken and egg challenge on are you data driven or you creative driven? This with one of frameworks of people use. But yeah, so I'm the chief collaboration officer. That was a very short answer to very short question. Right. And now can you tell us witty guys at Prasaga doing in Estonia, Swizzerland and the US? So we're doing? You know, we started with this thesis that if everybody own their own data and they could put it up on the data lakes and get paid for all the Ai Analysis. Instead of Facebook, if you have a smart home, you can put all your smart data up in the cloud and then be compensated for it. That then it give you data autonomy, so that the device manufacturers aren't the guys making and it's not the social networks that are making money off of you. You're participating directly in the commerce it's being generated. The only way you can do that that we could figure out was to do it on the blockchain in order to keep track of all these micro transactions and know how things were getting used. The difficulty we found out once we come didn't everybody. That was a great idea, was that we needed a blockchain that would scale to the use case that we had, because we had very fast message servers. Same Technology, this bind signal and used to be used and WHATSAPP for very secure peer to peer communication. So we start looking at all the different blockchains out there and we found out, after investigating them all, at least for our use case, none of them are going to scale to the rate that we needed them to. So we have a very hard decision to make, and it was only made easier by the brilliance of our CTEO, who's helped actually build the Internet that you're working on right now. In he came up with not only the way to make the blockchain and the way it works like a parallel processor so that it could do multiple things at once, but also the fact that we needed an operating system to run the blockchain, and that's our big innovation. We call it Saga Os. Just like you have IOS or Osten or, you know, even Microsoft Windows Os. We've built an operating system that runs on the blockchain and that's opening up huge vistas of opportunity now so the blockchain can find the full potential that it has as a technology to solve the problems that the blockchain is going to be good for. I'm a non technical guy here and when you say you have a blockchain as fos, thing pops into my mind. I have a computer erase, let's say windows, put it on there and I could do everything. Is that how it will work? It's really is.

If you think about the blockchain, is is the largest global computer ever invented, because it's all a network of nodes that are working. We can put an operating system on the network that allows everybody to have access to it. Now we've got a way that we can actually build applications that's much more efficient. And I don't want to get too technical, but since I started in entrepreneuring we've been saying, well, if we just had this one shared name space that everybody used for the code that they're using, wouldn't that be kep so much easier to inherit all of the functionality that's been built for other applications? And that's really how this is going to work. It's going to have shared code across the blockchain. That's going to make it so eventually, not necessarily right right as we get out of test ne it, you'll be able to pick the most appropriate language that you want to program in and you're going to be able to figure out what classes or code that's out there that you need to help build your application and then anything that's unique to what you're doing, you'll have to code that specific part for your application. I see. And what are you expecting people to do with Saga Os? What is the outlook? What is the vision? Wood is the future and when you're going to take off of the world? ha ha ha. Well, that's the exciting part, is that everybody else gets to use our technology to take over the world and I get this collaborate with them. Thank you. That is that was a great setup. The SAGOS is get it being. For example, we're getting people telling us all the things that'll do right now and and I'm about to head out to automotive supply chain conference, because one of the things we're able to do is use the blockchain to show the full what they call digital thread or supply chain evolution, so that whether it's the specialty chemicals that make up the rubber and the windshield raper or it's the metallurgical certification for the bolt that holds the engine on, all of that can now be completely certified and stored. Is One digital thread for the car that you bind and that change is a lot of how we are able to not only do recalls and regulatory compliance, etc. But it changes how warranty work will work, how will understand if there is a recall, all the manufacturing that's happened that have that particular part instantly off the block chain. So we can make safety that much faster by just having that kind of transparency and basically providence of all the parts. And that's pretty powerful and it gives a bunch of other advantages, but that's the main thing. So that's what people are saying to us. One of the things we've got a unique identifier that allows it to be used for voting, what we call governance and regulatory use. I'm working a lot with this. DG's the the sustainable development goals of the end with people are doing things like carbon sequestration and carbon tax. There's just a matter of fact that the difficulty is, what can't you do? That's the challenge. Is that there's so many things and the great thing is we're not trying to do them all. We're just enabling all those things to get done. Like when the APP still opened, it enabled companies like what'SAPP, tinder, Uber and what else is out there? Snap Telegram? Yeah, I Hadda you guys know that. Yeah, no, and I think that's the the best analogy for what we're doing is that, just like you had smartphones but until the APP store was launched you really didn't have all the things you wanted to do with the smartphone, and that really was the tipping point for everyone. And that's what we look at for the SAGOS has is to be that opening up of the potential of blockchain and having a token that everybody can transact with and for everybody who'd like to learn more, they can go down here into show notes and Click on saga on the link as well as you linkedin profile.

And of course we looking forward to receive some messages. Whom has taken over the world, a few clients of your users off Sagas. Yeah, so the blockchains called the saga chain, the Tokens called the Saga Coin, and I think we get to start to talk about all these partners. That's going to be the exciting thing and I look forward to further conversation. Thank you so much. I'm sure we'll have you back. And then we talked about the whole saga of Saga. Fantastic look forward and actually, for Saga means in the Sanscript, all things connected. So I'm glad to be connected with you and look forward to the next time we get to talk great. Thank you Jay. It was a pleasure having you as guested. Goodbye. Thanks.

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